*Great news!* The full Car and Driver article is now live online - you can read it here: www.caranddriver.com/features/a33824052/adjustment-factor-tesla-uses-for-big-epa-range-numbers/

Todd P

3 måneder siden

Wolfgang K Could be.. Could also be that Tesla submitted a car with a larger battery for testing.. Or paid off the testers maybe.. who knows. From what has been seen with the volkswagen clean diesel emissions testing scandal, wouldn’t surprise me at all

Wolfgang K

3 måneder siden

The main difference therefore must be that Tesla uses different speeds and hours of driving than Porsche to come up with a better result.

Todd P

3 måneder siden

Does anyone else find it extremely suspicious that the taycan and the model S were very close in range during real world testing done by independent 3rd parties? I guess it doesn’t surprise me really given Elon Musk’s history of fraudulent and misleading statements. Tesla is such a shady company.

A Balakrishnan

4 måneder siden

How do they come up with the A,B, and C constants.

Bonanzaking

4 måneder siden

Can you do a vid in regards to fords little vid with the mustang 1400?

I think all this math is great but didn't we overlook the one major factor. The Porsche has two gears. Wouldn't that make up the difference in range? KISS.

I am also a bit confused why you didn't expand at all on how highway ends up so close. The Tesla has a bigger battery so should get more highway range. But they are so close it's obvious Highway efficiencies are not at all as far off in reality. I'm starting to get confused why none the car journalists won't dig in more on real world efficiency differences and do more apples to apples testing using same day, same drive loop, same charger, and charger kwh claims to compare kwh/mi. All this nonsense pseudoscience government and manufacturer derived junk tells us nothing it seems based on the numbers of the Porsche and Tesla when on the highway they are almost the same.

Great video. His passion is for the science/facts and not simply a biased fanboy. ...if only that attitude could be carried out into the rest of society. 😔

You explain mathematically the difference in ranges but you don't theorize why the real world highway figures are so close. Is Tesla fudging their load equation? Also about the regen braking kicking in as soon as you let off the gas, that doesn't really increase efficiency or battery life because it slows the car down (less distance traveled, eg you could activate regen on Porsche too by immediately stepping on the brakes). A more telling efficiency measure would be friction braking vs regen. I suspect Tesla uses regen braking more than Porsche, which could explain reports of fading, overheating and inferior brakes on Teslas. Friction braking provides better braking power but less power back to batteries

There are couple issues with this/the EPA and it's quite obvious the test isn't standardized for maximum range it's just for simplicity. The EPA tests in default settings, Tesla is range and economy and Porsche is sport, one uses regen and one doesn't. When you take into account the default settings of each and then set both to the same parameters i.e range they're actually much closer than people would think. The Porsche range isn't as good but it is nicer to drive, the price difference is merely the heritage and handling and not indicative of value though.

I like your videos, but i don't get what is common with engineering and miles, pounds and other imperial units

You want to test them correctly, drive them both side by side at the same time, same speed, and then you'll get real picture. And don't forget, Tycan price is twice the TESLA model S.

And #4 Tesla just have a better technology than Porshe when comes to software, battery and electric motors !! Boooom, simply explanation ! Porshe had to sacrifice battery range to get good acceleration on their Tycan.

What is more economic big wheels or small wheels??

Porsche ignores all these tests because they don't mean anything, no extra effort required. We all know those are understatements for drivers in Germany pulling 300km/h.

Great content, as usual. Im not a tesla cult fan at all and admittedly, I am a huge porsche fan and and when the taycan wagon becomes available, I will be buying one. That said, I appreciate the rigor and detail that you and car and driver have committed to this explanation. I'm not interested in range as much as some might be, I've driven a taycan 4s and a taycam turbo and I livebthe way it drives! This is the main motivator for me. Acceleration and top speeds have gotten so silly that they don't even really matter anymore and im really just interested in cornering and balance now. However, it's nice to see that the real world difference in range, by an unbiased 3rd party reviewer (ie. Car and driver) has yielded a negligible difference, so if I did decide to drive from Toronto to Montreal in my future Taycan sport tourismo , I dont have much to worry about. I was following a nice gentleman's journey onbthe taycan forum, as he took his brand new tesla across Canada and all the way around the US in a 10,000mi+ road trip. That basically put my mind at ease for good. With Tesla's build quality problems and reliability issues, combined with how ugly their cars look, for me it's a no brainer. I'm not looking to drive a microwave or a lady-shaver around. The taycan looks just as good as the mission e concept and it feels great inside, and most importantly, as I mentioned earlier; it drives almost like a 911! The Taycan 4s made me feelnlike a superhero. Sorry for the long comment and thanks again for the great video. This has cemented my decision to go with the Taycan!

1 and 3. Tesla lies and Porsche has been conservative since 1957

Funny that the Porsche is just as good on the freeway. Yet has a smaller battery and is faster and can handle. Tesla fanboys hate on it alot.

The reason Porsche has a lower range is because they JUST got into EVs

Doesn't drag from air resistance increase with speed³ rather than speed²? That's what I think I remember learning many years ago anyway.

Does this mean that "turbo" badging on an EV doesn't work?

. ...still didn't answer the 200 miles difference.

euhm its called lying ? recent tests showed it only has 3/4th of its recommended milage ...

Wos this dude just aged 8 years overnight.

Regen is the key here, as you can see there is little difference in high speed high way traveling.

23/379*201 should be the first additional miles added to P instead of 23. (it’s ratio, not flat, also, it’s possible that if P goes through the same 3 additional tests, they will get a lower coefficient than 0.7)

hmm, doesn't that mean EVs are not more efficient on highways than in cities (the way gas cars are)? maybe it has something to do with high loses on high revs electric motors have at highways speeds?

Pavlo Deshko

3 måneder siden

oh, yes, it does. New to EV geekery, lol

Pound force... I shivered... this is so barbaric.

What about Tesla million mile battery???

Lucid: well well well

Huh. Even my Prius applies some regen when I stop touching the accelerator. Not very aggressive, not enough for one pedal driving, but it does it. Why aren't you doing it, Porche?

Beedoo X

3 måneder siden

I saw a NOlocal video recently where I believe it said it was a driver-option to switch it on and off. I don't own one, so I don't know if this is fact.

If I could afford both I would take the Porsche.

75 mph on a highway? I would get a speeding ticket and points for that in my state.

I don't understand where you got the data A, B and C for the equation, and this is the key to solving the puzzle..

Can you make a video on the Hyliion ERX class 8 truck, it's using Renewable Natural Gas plus batteries. I really like your videos that are batteries vs gas, gas vs hydrogen, hydrogen ICE vs hydrogen fuel cell, etc, etc. You do such a great job on breaking down the tech and explaining everything, I'd really like to see that done with Hyliion ERX truck. The RNG + batteries with electric drive train seems like a winner on the surface, but I'd like to see you breakdown of it and if it's really as good as they claim it to be. Thanks

kind of makes you wonder where did that extra 100k cost for turbo taycan goes ? small panel gap, better paint job or just paying for the brand name ? Kind of expensive to pay an extra 100k for something so consequential.

Honestly, using those units is so ridiculous, it makes your explanation much less enjoyable

I don't understand the road load. Wouldn't aerodynamics go into the equation with velocity squared, rather than not depending on velocity at all? That can't be right. And conversely, internal friction shouldn't depend significantly on velocity. Did you perhaps confuse the two? And from what I can find, the Taycan has a drag coefficient of 0.22 while the Model S has 0.24, so how does it have a better aerodynamics factor? In general, it would be much more useful to just drive them rather than interpreting figures that we don't really know how they came to be.

The Porsche has a two speed gear box. You are not indicating which gear is being used and how efficient each gear is.

Corvette = fancy VW 😂

Excellent work, adds value to C&D's deep-dive. Thanks.

13:08 Using 95% of 100KWhr battery. The assumption is 100KWhr battery. You said in the beginning we're assuming it. Maybe that's why Also you said regen is affecting about 13% so on highway, no regen, so that much lower

I knew it! Now it’s Tesla Emissionen scandal. Lol

Thing is, the Tesla looks like a POS Mazda 6. The Taycan is beautiful. Faster as well.

Well kiss my sister's gritts

is it just me, or is the lede a little buried here at 15:15? If we're looking for how Tesla can get twice the range out of just a 20% battery-caacity advantage, it seems like we have an answer: they don't. I mean the math, phsyics and testing standards information is interesting, and I get that that's the point of the video, really. But the setup for this whole analysis that it ostensibly debunks three bits of "silly speculation": (1) Tesla's range quotes are dishonest and its cars just don't achieve them, (2) the EPA testing process greases Tesla results, and (3) Porsche is understating its range. C&D drives both cars under essentially identical conditions, whereupon the Porsche outperforms its number and the Tesla *dramatically* underperforms its own; and the math shows how automakers can (and Tesla specifically does) goose its range numbers under EPA rules - how is that "smacking" the "silly speculation" in the face? It sounds a whole lot like supporting literally all three claims.

Still coming from the guy who said the earth was flat

Tesla S _ Tesla X _ Tesla Spider__Tesla Y _ Tesla Ciberg__Tesla ZT....Tesla XL( Six passangers) ✅✅ℹ⏰

bruh did this man really just call that a ferrari and a corvette

When are the over head recharge grids coming to the interstates ya know like how the bumper cars work positive overhead grounds to the road. The recharge telescopic pole only extends during charging

Why doesn’t anybody talk about energy loss with electric cars? I honestly think that if we want to make a energy efficient car, we should implement reactors into our homes and cars

I wouldn’t be surprised if the actual Porsche numbers are actually a little higher. They’ve always been conservative in numbers. I remember for several years their 0-60 times were actually slower than what independent testers found

I'm surprised you didn't have to assume the cars are perfect spheres with uniform weight distribution and no drag 😂

Really, nobody? Well...here goes: At 1:00 that's actually the new Corvette and the Cayman GT4, no Ferrari there! =))

Isn't the battery size difference only gonna get Tesla around 27 miles

14:32 since when was rain and wind strange

You are so amazing at drawing cars. You could be a car designer, and fix all the complicated modern styling. Your styling is so simple and clean and I love it.!!!!

I wonder how many Tesla fanboys are squirming over this video having nothing to do with "better" battery tech.

Hi Could you please make a video about how vtvt engine works ? and what is MPI engine ?

13:48 The difference is likely due to the constant speed of 75mph assumed in the example, and maybe more importantly, the absence of the superior beneficial effect of throttle-off regenerative braking that the EPA driving cycle affords the Tesla, compared to the Porsche's braking-only regeneration.

Is there not, as well, something about the way that the tesla performance drops off quite quickly when being driven hard eg around a race track or with repeated standing start accelerations? To do with the battery tech I gather?

The last point is the most relevant. At speeds where range matters the difference isn’t that big. If only a taycan 4S wasn’t that expensive.

I hope you talk about Nuclear Diamond Battery & how it'll help electric cars!

Fascinating. What math do you "do" to get from the lbf of road load to the energy required to travel X miles?

yeah, it´s interesting on ¨paper¨ but there is guy(youtuber) from Norway Bjørn Nyland who´s doing real life tests with EVs and he did 400 mile range(90km/h) with model S... Porsche just was made for to beat Tesla performance specs, not for better future or something green idieas ))) they did everything to improve specs of driving and acceleration, that´s why they sacrificed range, space, price and... so these two are different kind cars with different targets

Looks like electrics are nearly getting to the point they're worth buying. For an intown car atleast. My 2,600 mile road trip last year would have sucked if we were tied to finding chargers.

Doing physics with imperial units is wack what am I even looking at 😂

Hello everyone and comment!

crazy to think that the competition for EV's will continue to grow in the future

Porsche don't wanna go down that road, because it takes twice as much energy going down that road. Oh and the Clarkson family got murdered going down that road!!!

I read the article, but this clarifies things a lot more. Thank you!

With all vehicles, EVs and ICE, I’ve always used their range and economy figures as a comparison against other vehicles in the same category, that’s it. I don’t take the actual figures as what I’m going to achieve in the real world but use it as a “the Ford appears to be 10% more fuel efficient than the Volvo” etc and that’s purely because I’ve always felt that the testing does not reflect real world conditions.

Just stopped by to say Lucid Motors has a 500 mile battery.

Food for thought: EE has more subscribers than Car & Driver's monthly circulation

Have not read the C&D article as yet but from what I glean from the video is that the EPA range figures are garbage and not to be trusted; and that the empirical data shows the Tesla would have an expected ~6.2% range advantage in real world driving (222/209). Sound about right, Jason? FWIW, this aligns with my personal experience with EPA ratings on my ICE vehicles. Some handily better the EPA ratings and others fall woefully short.

Truth or not, car and driver have been proven manufacturer results and omissions. Meaning they have taken money for results. I'm surprised as a youtuber you didn't know that. Ask any large NOlocal channel that does product reviews

*QUESTION:* Does Lucid Motors' 900v architecture leave Tesla at a disadvantage?

Question concerning regen amount.... In the real world - vs the EPA - test how much (in amps) does the Tesla produce vs the Taycan? Does the EPA test define "coasting" as feet off both the pedals? If that's the case, then the Tesla isn't really coasting. I guess that help explains the closer real world mileage.

I love the styling of both & the performance if each car is amazing by any standard so if i was in the market for a car in this price range I would have a really hard time choosing between the two!

Also, doesn’t the Porsche prioritise performance over range? Run the Tesla on Ludicrous mode and see what the range is.

👍

*Competitor's Secret To Dominating Tesla - The Internal Combustion Engine!* 🇹🇷🇺🇲🇵2020

My God America needs to get out of the 18th century and start using International ISO units instead of your mickey Mouse lbf miles mixed with KWh - how about Newtons & Joules?

Excellent presentation - thank you.

When Elon Musk meet Herbert Diess, I realize that Tesla is the best.

Long story short, Tesla has more range because Tesla is S3XY

I never think I'll watch the whole thing when I click, but your presentation approach and attention to detail always draw me in and here we are 16 minutes later - excellent video as usual, thank you!

The amount of freedom units in this ENGINEERING video is mind blowing 🤯😵😱

Nice work. How did you get Porsche's range results, before lowering? I was under the impression that was not public information.

Excellent video , as normal. Now my diatribe on electric vehicles ! Over a decade ago, I had a Ford Mondeo 1.8 Litre petrol. It could do about 38 UK MPG at motorway speeds. It's 13 UK Gallon tank could therefore take it somewhere just short of 500 miles to empty on a tank of fuel. I also did an LPG conversion. So I had 2 fuel tanks . On LPG I had about a 200 mile range. Combined it was nearly a 700 mile range. It didn't weigh 1.8 tons either. Ford Mondeo Diesels along with other manufacturers, made the range on my one , not look that good. Even my current Honda Jazz (Fit in the US) that only has an 8.8 UK Gallon tank , and will do something like 43 MPG at motorway speeds. Therefore it's range to empty is about 378 miles. It costs a hell of a lot less than either a Porsche or a Tesla to buy (yeah, it's not as quick , I know that). Even the electric cars more comparable to my Honda Jazz still cost a lot more. On the low mileage I expect to do, depreciation is a very large part of the running cost. The electric ones , when I've done the sums, only seem to payback the extra cost when the car has done something like 100,000 miles. It would take me about 12 to 14 years to do that many miles. It's also still a lot quicker to fill up a petrol powered vehicle, even the 50 KW chargers can't really compete with a petrol pump as speed of filling the vehicle up. Most chargers in the UK are a hell of a lot slower than 50 KW , more like 7KW at home or 16KW at a service station. It'll be a longtime before I get an electric vehicle, maybe if ever. The electric vehicle future in my opinion will be hydrogen fuel cell, but that's still a bit of a way off.

We have the teslabjørn test for a realistic one

The most amazing thing I learned from this video, is that people still buy print media?!

So the resistive force at v=0 is F=A? Absurd, no?

My speculation is that the people at Porsche do not want to produce and sell a good range car at the same price than the gas one. They are making more money selling gas car. Tesla is making money on another business model. Hyundai, a few years ago, was losing money on every electric Elantra, about 5000$.

I was searching for 9-11 truth, and NOlocal had this in the suggested ... hey youtube ... you gotta think again about Community Guidelines ... do you comprehend your own guidelines ... or do you not ... you may have to ban your self for doing so ... hahaha ... but i love EE ... but YT is behaving like a loose, uncontrolled diarrhea ... avoid it

Bottom line is, despite all the science/marketing info that Tesla has 2x the range, both cars got a similar 200 mile range in a real world highway test which is what people really care about in regards to ‘range.’ If I bought a ‘400 mile range tesla’ and took it on a highway trip to discover it only gets 200 miles, I wouldn’t be happy. Again Tesla sets high expectations and does not meet them.

the real question here is why on earth the porsche is named 'turbo'

Jason calls the new C8 corvette a Ferrari and a Porsche 911 a Corvette, WOW, ironic

Car = cheap, maintainable tool to get things that are not close enough. Affordable if it is less than two month salary. Maintainable if it requires less than 1 month salary in a year. So: 10-20 year old Japan cars. An engineer in middle Europe will be never make that much money to be able to afford a Tesla (except if it is a matchbox car)...

How come nobody mentions the combined gas+electric range on the taycan, since it’s a plug-hybrid? That could easily fill in the gaps in range, especially if the hybrid engine is turbocharged, implying it’s quite powerful.

Lots of math. But a Corolla will still beat either in a 400 mile road trip to LA, and leave enough money left over for 3 Camry's. And in California, when the power goes out while you are charging the car, get the bicycle out. Of course you could always charge the car with a power wall, but that is a lot of money to assuage your green guilt. No thanks.

IMO the most reasonable explanation for all these strange results (which is hard to confirm without seeing more data first) is that the Tesla power train is horribly inefficient at high speeds. This would explain the very close highway range, which is quite low for the Tesla despite the battery + road load advantages. The Porsche uses a 2 speed transmission for optimum efficiency at all speeds, it's clearly working. In this video, the presenter is conveniently glossing over the interesting bits that were too deep for the article, which clearly had a word limit, while focusing on the irrelevant parts like at 6:23 - Tesla uses a different regen strategy, but that shouldn't matter as the test calls for a certain speed at every time in the test. In the Tesla you achieve the slowing down needed for that by letting off the accelerator, in the Porsche you gently press the brake to engage the ebrake. This shouldn't translate to a difference in range.

Soooo, Porsche rates range like folks are going to drive the Taycan like they’re on the Autobahn some of the time (true!!) and Tesla rates the range of the Model S LR like the owner is going to run it at the double nickel or 65 tops like speed limits on most of Northern CA highways (not true .....) 🤔

You just blew my mind.